Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:32 pm

doc_loliday wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much atheist, more agnostic I suppose. I act morally too, it just depends on whose definition. Man's or God's. This distinction bothers many people. If morality is temporary construct, which it seems to be for most religious people anyway, it's not morality at all. Which it may not be. But if society and our evolution has made rules, that most of us live by and call morality, I can live with that, even if it's not a universal law. It's just strange to realize, it can be disconcerting really. Anyway, I'd like there to be an afterlife, it would seem a waste for there not to be. But this angst is something humans have to deal with, realizing we have to die.


Oh sorry didn't realise your were a atheist/ agnostic, but my question wasn't meant top be aggressive, the religious can wail on about how atheists cant tell right from wrong and whatever but there is no evidence to prove it, just like there is no evidence to prove the reverse of that statement, that with religion you can tell right from wrong.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Kazon Nystrøm » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:36 pm

No data.

"Condoms Help the spread of aids"

"Hitler was an atheist"

"Masturbation damages the spinal cord (where semen originates :facepalm: )"

"Catholic priests who abuse kids were possessed"

"The whole abuse scandal can be blamed on the 1960's culture"

I'll add "most serial killers are atheist" to the list of religious lies.

I'm dissapointed. I honestly thought Dr. S was a far better person than this.
It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase.

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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby doc_loliday » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:38 pm

Runicmadhamster wrote:Oh sorry didn't realise your were a atheist/ agnostic, but my question wasn't meant top be aggressive, the religious can wail on about how atheists cant tell right from wrong and whatever but there is no evidence to prove it, just like there is no evidence to prove the reverse of that statement, that with religion you can tell right from wrong.


Well, what DSL is saying is that as atheist you can't believe in objective morality. Only moral relativism. Most people are quite uncomfortable with this when they start to think about it, so they get up in arms about it. Personally, I think that life evolves to survive, to expand, and to protect itself while our cultures add additional "rights and wrongs." Whether or not this means anything in the universal sense is nothing that can be proven.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:39 pm

Kazon Nystrøm wrote:No data.

"Condoms Help the spread of aids"

"Hitler was an atheist"

"Masturbation damages the spinal cord (where semen originates :facepalm: )"

"Catholic priests who abuse kids were possessed"

"The whole abuse scandal can be blamed on the 1960's culture"

I'll add "most serial killers are atheist" to the list of religious lies.

I'm dissapointed. I honestly thought Dr. S was a far better person than this.


The most poisonous of that list has to be "Condoms Help the spread of aids", its a stupid statement and the pope never should have said it.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:41 pm

doc_loliday wrote:Well, what DSL is saying is that as atheist you can't believe in objective morality. Only moral relativism. Most people are quite uncomfortable with this when they start to think about it, so they get up in arms about it. Personally, I think that life evolves to survive, to expand, and to protect itself while our cultures add additional "rights and wrongs." Whether or not this means anything in the universal sense is nothing that can be proven.


I think the main point is that relgion has little to do with moral teaching at all.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby doc_loliday » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:50 pm

Runicmadhamster wrote:I think the main point is that relgion has little to do with moral teaching at all.


Well, clearly the religious think it does. But DSL often has to argue with people who claim that atheist can have objective morality. You can define objective morality as you like, but in the strictest sense, or at least how DSL defines it, universal law doesn't jive with atheism. Anyway, he gets pretty upset about it, I don't necessarily blame him, I've been hearing the same arguments go back and forth since I got here, and folks aren't exactly kind to him with regards to religion. People can be ruthless with the religious on the internet, you gotta have a pretty thick skin. Vice versa. You gotta tip toe around this stuff to talk about peacefully and I think we'd all do better to tone down the rhetoric and explain our ideas, instead of escalating to get your point across. I've said some disparaging things about religion, sometimes in jest, beyond what I believe to be fact about religion, it's pointless and I try not to do it. Off my soap box.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:59 pm

doc_loliday wrote:
Well, clearly the religious think it does. But DSL often has to argue with people who claim that atheist can have objective morality. You can define objective morality as you like, but in the strictest sense, or at least how DSL defines it, universal law doesn't jive with atheism. Anyway, he gets pretty upset about it, I don't necessarily blame him, I've been hearing the same arguments go back and forth since I got here, and folks aren't exactly kind to him with regards to religion. People can be ruthless with the religious on the internet, you gotta have a pretty thick skin. Vice versa. You gotta tip toe around this stuff to talk about peacefully and I think we'd all do better to tone down the rhetoric and explain our ideas, instead of escalating to get your point across. I've said some disparaging things about religion, sometimes in jest, beyond what I believe to be fact about religion, it's pointless and I try not to do it. Off my soap box.


I dont think the Atheist movement would lose any ground if they said "Ok we dont have objective morality, we still can act and do act morally", really it would cost us anything to drop the objective morality argument. As to your point about toning down, i tried it, but in the end i gave it up. People would make comments that they thought were harmless (because their pastor told them it was) but were actually quite barbed to me, and the ones they made when they meet offence were got on my nerves a lot, i realised that (with the people i was talking with at any rate) they weren't going to tone down because they didnt think their remarks offencive, their pastors had told them they were facts of life. So now i try to tone down my remarks that much, i do occasionally, but not much.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby drtrech » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:18 am

It seems to me that theists try to impose some greater cosmic significance to the notion of "objective morality."

For me, saying that morality means you don't do unnecessary harm is pretty objective. I understand "harm," I understand "necessity," and I can reasonably expand on that notion such that allowing unnecessary harm is also immoral.

It really doesn't give much wiggle room for someone who is intellectually honest.

But then the theists start insisting that if you don't have a deity, you can't know what's harmful and what isn't, and why should it matter anyway?

That line, frankly, is complete BS, as it is nothing more than an obfuscation tactic. If you need a deity to convince you that it's immoral to do unnecessary harm, then the problem lies with you rather than the godless.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby slidecube » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:52 pm

Runicmadhamster wrote:You have just (in essence) compared someone like Richard Dawkins (far smarter than you or i) to someone like Tom Cruise. That's ridiculous.


Actually, unless he's talking about evolutionary biology, Richard Dawkins is pretty fucking stupid. And, I find it ironic how many atheists I've met that tell me I need to read The God Delusion.

You want some good thought provoking discussion on atheism? Read Albert Camus or Nietzsche or even Christopher Hitchens. They were intelligent atheists.

That being said, I'm staying out of this conversation and just posting humorous/inflammatory images.

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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:10 pm

slidecube wrote:
Runicmadhamster wrote:You have just (in essence) compared someone like Richard Dawkins (far smarter than you or i) to someone like Tom Cruise. That's ridiculous.


Actually, unless he's talking about evolutionary biology, Richard Dawkins is pretty fucking stupid. And, I find it ironic how many atheists I've met that tell me I need to read The God Delusion.

You want some good thought provoking discussion on atheism? Read Albert Camus or Nietzsche or even Christopher Hitchens. They were intelligent atheists.

That being said, I'm staying out of this conversation and just posting humorous/inflammatory images.

Image

Image

Image


The posting of humorous/inflammatory images is always welcome
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby drtrech » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 pm

slidecube wrote:
Runicmadhamster wrote:You have just (in essence) compared someone like Richard Dawkins (far smarter than you or i) to someone like Tom Cruise. That's ridiculous.


Actually, unless he's talking about evolutionary biology, Richard Dawkins is pretty fucking stupid. And, I find it ironic how many atheists I've met that tell me I need to read The God Delusion.


Dawkins is Pretty fucking stupid?

Doctorate (and a dozen or so honorary doctorates) aside, he is the recipient of numerous literary prizes and awards, and was elected fellow of the royal society of literature and the royal society. Long list of recognitions and publications.

You may disagree with him, but he's quite far from stupid.

However, the people who suggested that you should read The God Delusion were pretty fucking stupid. That's not a book that will persuade a mind change in anyone. You're not going to convince anyone of anything if you start out by attacking their ideas.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby Runicmadhamster » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:17 pm

drtrech wrote:However, the people who suggested that you should read The God Delusion were pretty fucking stupid. That's not a book that will persuade a mind change in anyone. You're not going to convince anyone of anything if you start out by attacking their ideas.


The God Delusion was a pretty hard book to read, Dawkins knew his subject well, but worded it in scientific terms, i finished but had to re-read a few times to get all the points.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby drtrech » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:25 pm

Runicmadhamster wrote:
drtrech wrote:However, the people who suggested that you should read The God Delusion were pretty fucking stupid. That's not a book that will persuade a mind change in anyone. You're not going to convince anyone of anything if you start out by attacking their ideas.


The God Delusion was a pretty hard book to read, Dawkins knew his subject well, but worded it in scientific terms, i finished but had to re-read a few times to get all the points.

It seemed like he belabored a few points--could have shaved off a few dozen pages. But I found it a good read.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby DBTrek » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:28 pm

The concept of having to read a book to convince yourself something unverifiable isn't true makes me question the intelligence of self-proclaimed atheist.

Do you guys need a book every time someone tells you some bullshit story and offers no evidence to back it up? Is there an anti-Easter bunny Book somewhere for you all, or are you folks still on the fence about that one?

Derp.
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin

Postby drtrech » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:37 pm

DBTrek wrote:The concept of having to read a book to convince yourself something unverifiable isn't true makes me question the intelligence of self-proclaimed atheist.

Do you guys need a book every time someone tells you some bullshit story and offers no evidence to back it up? Is there an anti-Easter bunny Book somewhere for you all, or are you folks still on the fence about that one?

Derp.

Odd point. I always considered reading to be a good way of gaining exposure to new ideas, and challenging or reinforcing existing ones.

I'm sorry that your experience with books hasn't been as edifying.
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