Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dan » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:49 am

e_room_matt wrote:Dan, for what it is worth, this was really an effective ad placement. I had zero interest in swords, let alone buying one a few days ago. And in the odd circumstance that I happened to want a sword, these are not the kind I would have pursued.

I must have logged about 3-4 hours looking and learning about Albion Swords the last couple of days. I'm transfixed.

The urge is definately there but I really can't justify the cost at this time. I manage the money in the house and my wife would absolutely kill me the way I hound her about expenses. "You bought a what? It cost us what?"


Well, I encourage anyone who feels the way you do to drop Albion an email and tell them that you heard about them via us and how much it sparked your interest. Even if you can't buy a sword right now, at least they will know that what you said is true (that it WAS an effective ad placement). :wink:
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:47 pm

e_room_matt wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:What about the points on some of these blades? Especially the gladius. How much do you risk in breaking those points?

Not sure how much use these will actually get. I am not a martial artist or a reinactor. I live in the middle of nowhere so I'm unlikely to start. I like these for their historical appeal, but I openly admit I know little about swords.

Which ones would you buy if you were so inclined Doc?



A gladius or a bastard sword. If I am paying for a sword, I at least want something that if feasibly serviceable for me. I like longswords too but you need to maintain your muscle mass to swing them around for long. I keep my muscles about the same -- which is somewhat lower than before because the more muscles I build, the more chronic pain I will experience.

Without this disability, however, I would prefer a longsword. Not something huge but balanced.

I don't have experience with swords either but I am pretty sure I would find swinging a sword against wooden opponents therapeutic. It is no different than when you go in the woods camping and play around throwing hatchets and other knives.

I would not pay all this money for a sword that I won't use and there is not much utility to a sword in our time. So with that in mind, if the tip of the gladius is prone to break, I would go with the bastard. If not, I would prefer the gladius simply for speed and a tiny margin of utility to justify the cost.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby robin » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:03 pm

Have you looked at the weight of these swords Doc? The heaviest one is around 4lbs and most of them are half that. All of the gladius style swords that Albion makes are under 2lbs. Long swords are not heavy things. How could anyone wield 15lbs of steel over and over again? Alot of the long swords they do make are in the 3lbs range.

Also high carbon steel does not easily break. What would make you think the tip of the gladius would break. Even if it does and it is an Albion sword you could send it back to them and they would fix it.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:35 pm

robin wrote:Have you looked at the weight of these swords Doc? The heaviest one is around 4lbs and most of them are half that. All of the gladius style swords that Albion makes are under 2lbs. Long swords are not heavy things. How could anyone wield 15lbs of steel over and over again? Alot of the long swords they do make are in the 3lbs range.

Also high carbon steel does not easily break. What would make you think the tip of the gladius would break. Even if it does and it is an Albion sword you could send it back to them and they would fix it.



Three pounds is pretty light. I didn't look at the weights because I assumed these things would weigh in pretty heavy. I don't have experience with swords. Daggers though.. you risk breaking the tip off of even a very good dagger. When I look at a gladius, that tip seems prone to break. But I don't really know. I would rather own a sword I can beat up and I don't want one that will easily break. That's all. Three pounds is far lighter than I expected though.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby robin » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:53 pm

How about a very expensive machete

The Cherusker (Germanic Single Edged)
Specifications
Overall length: 31.5” (80 cm)
Blade length: 25.75” (65.4 cm)
Blade width: 2.375” (6 cm)
CoP: 17.25” (43.8 cm)
CoB: 7.125” (18.1cm)
Weight: 1lb 13oz (815g)


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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Rhoetus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:41 pm

... :facepalm:

Anyway, really, Doc, if you break it by chance on a tree, then you just get it replaced...no prob. If you break it say, in a burglar, then maybe you have to ask the cops to get it back for ya, and then get it replaced.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby robin » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:56 pm

Rhoetus wrote:
Dan wrote:
Rhoetus wrote:You know, Dan, if you want some real Rennaisance armor to go with those swords...I can hook you up with a guy who makes custom (as in your style and fitted to you) armor... :mrgreen:
Just sayin'...


Oh man...could you tempt me any more than this? :( :( :(


Why, yes, yes, Dan I believe I can...

(most of these come from my buddy Nick's myspace page http://www.myspace.com/kaiser_nicholas/photos ) if you want more pics.



Very nice. Yeah looks real clunky and hard to move in. :shakinghead:

You mentioned the one about his wedding suit. I am not saying that is a little strange but I will say that is one tolerant bride. I can just imagine the "Excalibur" type of a wedding night they had together.

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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:18 pm

Rhoetus wrote:... :facepalm:

Anyway, really, Doc, if you break it by chance on a tree, then you just get it replaced...no prob. If you break it say, in a burglar, then maybe you have to ask the cops to get it back for ya, and then get it replaced.



:qmarks: wtf?
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby e_room_matt » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:24 pm

Dan wrote:Well, I encourage anyone who feels the way you do to drop Albion an email and tell them that you heard about them via us and how much it sparked your interest. Even if you can't buy a sword right now, at least they will know that what you said is true (that it WAS an effective ad placement). :wink:


Done.

I also asked their advice for aquiring swords on a budget. They have a "moat" section to their site where they sell off seconds/partials/tests but the few albion swords there are basically bought already. Almost as if they don't make many mistakes. :wink:

They have bare blade gladius' available for $100, but I don't really think I have the woodworking tools/expertise to complete a good looking grip. Tempting project though.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:26 pm

Dan wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote: The Japanese defeated the Mongols every time.


The Japanese never fought the Mongols. The Fleets of Kublai Khan were Korean (there's a great piece on the archaeological finds concerning the events of the "Mongol" invasions of Japan in the book The Archaeology of War...there were virtually no Mongols there. Not just that, even if there HAD been, fighting on walled beaches and the like are not really representative of the sort of "Mongol" warfare any other Mongol foe ever faced, don't you agree?)

And Doc, calling Nevsky's army a "Peasant" army is also extremely misleading. The so-called "Battle of the Ice" involved very few Western Knights killed (maybe as few as two dozen, and Nevsky had a lot of cavalry and armored forces...the "Polk" troops he used are not peasants).

We can talk all day long about the theoretical capabilities of "peasant" armies...but the truth is they would not often stand and fight (morale, of course, being crucial) nor could they often maneuver at all. The non-knightly western armies that DID defeat knights (like those of the low countries) were not peasants, but spearmen who were trained. The VAST majority of times that knights and peasants came into military contact, even if the knights were vastly outnumbered, it was a massacre. Because peasants aren't warriors, no matter how you arm and equip them.



You mean I can't do something like this?

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... =&as_vis=0

If I equip peasants with weapons to defeat armor and cavalry and then train them to use that, how exactly is that not converting peasants into an effective army? I never claimed they are better warriors. My claim is that there exists so many more of them and the tools to defeat knights are easily constructed. You build morale by starting small and giving them small victories to build confidence. Reward them with the loot they capture from your opponents. When they have issues over which you can control, reciprocate their loyalty.

^^^ That is exactly how feudalism was defeated in both Europe and Japan. Eventually you end up with some form of monarchy or empire.


This is interesting:

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This then was the political and historical scene when Rodney Hilton wrote Bond Men Made Free. He was anxious to show that the English rising of 1381 was paralleled by similar continental movements, and to demonstrate that peasant unrest was endemic in feudal society from its origins in the first millennium. He argued that social classes had already formed in the middle ages, contrary to the view that in pre-industrial societies there were no classes, only 'orders'. The peasants were pursuing their economic interests as small producers burdened with legal restrictions, rents and services. By the thirteenth century they were selling produce in the market, but resented the lords for taking a proportion of their small profits in rent. They demanded their freedom, and the reduction or abolition of their obligations to their lords. The revels in 1381, and in earlier revolts, were fired with enthusiasm by ideas, such as the Christian belief in the equality of all men before God, but they also organized themselves, and pursued rational goals. They rejected the idea that they had an implicit contract with lords, and owed labour and rent in exchange for protection and prayer from the secular aristocracy and the wealthy churchmen. They realized that radical reforms were needed in both law and government in order to get rid of burdens of lordship.

Hilton set the tone for the subsequent treatment of peasant rebellion in the sense that he took his subject seriously, and patronizing or dismissive attitudes have almost disappeared. Freedman has shown how those negative views of peasants are rooted in the medieval past, and he has also pursued Hilton's ambition of understanding peasant attitudes by considering their self image.


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From Christopher Dyer's preface to Bond men made free: medieval peasant movements and the English rising of 1381, Rodney Howard Hilton


I think this optimate thing is clouding you here. I seriously doubt the narrative of knights crushing the peasants throughout the middle ages. Certainly, that is the only reason for knights -- to suppress the peasants into servitude. Otherwise, you build armies or legions, right? I also doubt the narrative that most of these battles were fought -- and won -- by virtue of the knights. I honestly doubt that. If you are going to fight a major campaign that risked the future of western Europe, you are going to build a peasant army. It makes no sense to not do this. The consequence of doing that is the expansion of rights and freedoms to the peasants and the rise of trade and merchant classes. This is exactly what happened.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Rhoetus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:14 pm

Robin, the shiny suit with no one in it is the weddding suit...I believe he is a jouster too, and his wife a groupy (yes, they have them) so a wedding between them was going to have a particular theme anyway. My buddy Paul, who is the founder and real artisan of Nikkitta Armories made a replication of the Frederick I foot armor...and then got on a horse and proposed to his wife...well, girlfriend, but they are married now, so...anyway...
There is a large sub-culture that is highly taken with the ideals of the knightly world. (as opposed to its realities)

Doc, I think you may also misunderstand just how busy the Medeival peasant was. He wasn't some gentleman farmer running the family business, he was a laborer of the lowest level, constantly on the verge of starvation. Any excess he had was gobbled up by either his lord or his community. He owned nothing, not even his own body, which was so misused that he generally died by the time he turned 40. Even "lords and ladies" generally just had a larger hovel, which they had the undreamed up privacy of either a screen or possibly a closet to keep them from their household...made up of their close retainers and domestic servants (and/or slaves) which also had to be fed off of the peasant's labor.
It wasn't until the Black Death ca. 1350 that peasants started to gain some measure of value...as so many died that labor was at a premium as does labor saving tools...if memory serves the wheelbarrow and curved blades on plows came into use in Europe around this time. Its also at this time when we see your peasant armies coming around...sort of. Actually it is ussually in the form of freeman or yeoman bands, many of which were trained on the battlefield as mercenaries.

A little mental excersize might be to imagine ten or twenty Auschwitz survivors trying to beat down a well-fed guard, rather than a group of healthy modern farmers with big arms and coveralls doing the same.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:35 pm

Rhoetus wrote:Robin, the shiny suit with no one in it is the weddding suit...I believe he is a jouster too, and his wife a groupy (yes, they have them) so a wedding between them was going to have a particular theme anyway. My buddy Paul, who is the founder and real artisan of Nikkitta Armories made a replication of the Frederick I foot armor...and then got on a horse and proposed to his wife...well, girlfriend, but they are married now, so...anyway...
There is a large sub-culture that is highly taken with the ideals of the knightly world. (as opposed to its realities)

Doc, I think you may also misunderstand just how busy the Medeival peasant was. He wasn't some gentleman farmer running the family business, he was a laborer of the lowest level, constantly on the verge of starvation. Any excess he had was gobbled up by either his lord or his community. He owned nothing, not even his own body, which was so misused that he generally died by the time he turned 40. Even "lords and ladies" generally just had a larger hovel, which they had the undreamed up privacy of either a screen or possibly a closet to keep them from their household...made up of their close retainers and domestic servants (and/or slaves) which also had to be fed off of the peasant's labor.
It wasn't until the Black Death ca. 1350 that peasants started to gain some measure of value...as so many died that labor was at a premium as does labor saving tools...if memory serves the wheelbarrow and curved blades on plows came into use in Europe around this time. Its also at this time when we see your peasant armies coming around...sort of. Actually it is ussually in the form of freeman or yeoman bands, many of which were trained on the battlefield as mercenaries.

A little mental excersize might be to imagine ten or twenty Auschwitz survivors trying to beat down a well-fed guard, rather than a group of healthy modern farmers with big arms and coveralls doing the same.



A little exercise might also entail asking a marine veteran of Iwo Jima how he managed to continue fighting after dropping down to less than 140lbs from malnutrition and dysentery. Or.. how anybody managed to survive Auschwitz at all. To my mind, that is the ultimate refutation of your point so I don't see why you would bring it up. Those people should not have survived but they did. They had the will to do so and they endured.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Rhoetus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:15 pm

I'm going to try and stop arguing with you Doc, I'm already bald, I'm out of hair to pull out.

I will however suggest watching,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyjb0-TsxYGet about 2 minutes in, and then you can see some of what people in 70 or 80 lbs of armor can do. The jousting is real, just blunt lances, and of course, the foot combat is staged, but you can see the speed and maneuverability of the guys.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:32 pm

Rhoetus wrote:I'm going to try and stop arguing with you Doc, I'm already bald, I'm out of hair to pull out.

I will however suggest watching,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyjb0-TsxYGet about 2 minutes in, and then you can see some of what people in 70 or 80 lbs of armor can do. The jousting is real, just blunt lances, and of course, the foot combat is staged, but you can see the speed and maneuverability of the guys.



I am sorry. I don't mean to anger you. I love knights as well.
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Re: Dan's Albion Sword Obsession

Postby Dan » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:
A gladius or a bastard sword. If I am paying for a sword, I at least want something that if feasibly serviceable for me. I like longswords too but you need to maintain your muscle mass to swing them around for long. I keep my muscles about the same -- which is somewhat lower than before because the more muscles I build, the more chronic pain I will experience.

Without this disability, however, I would prefer a longsword. Not something huge but balanced.


A bastard sword IS a longsword Doc. :wink: It's just a difference in the terminology that doesn't really mean anything. If you have a grip long enough for both hands to fit on it...it's a "longsword" (A "bastard" sword, or "hand-and-a-half sword" is a form of longsword).

The one I have, pictured here, is under 3 pounds
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