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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Occam wrote:
You are a hunter gatherer with no hunting or gathering skills, nor land to hunt or gather on. You are a casualty of a highly productive, yet extremely fragile system that rewards some but leaves many in the dust. We call this state of existence "unemployed."



Sorry, have to disagree here on you idea, that hunter gatherers had nothing comparable to unemployment. As Kolokol888 alread said:

Quote:
I think the original premise is false. There was unemployment in hunter gatherer societies; the sick, the lame,the old, the young, the stupid etc.


And even if you are a successful hunter you might have problems with finding enough food: it is proven, that hunter gatherers over-hunted their own food source, leading to famine and eventually lots of deaths. So, yeah, life today might suck but not as hard as back then, at least not in our western societies.

Unemployment is the side effect of a too efficient ressource gathering system: We do not need so many people to sustain our western civilisation but on the other hand the people not needed are not forced to die because of lack of ressources. Hence unenmployment.


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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:18 am 
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I’m not so sure we have to go back thousands of years to the dawn of man in order to sort this one out.

Many thousands of pioneers headed west in the 1800’s to make a new life for themselves. By society’s definition of today these pioneers would be considered unemployed, but it would silly to argue they didn’t work extremely hard. On top of busting their ass they had to be fairly skilled at building a home, raising crops, raising livestock, self schooling, self doctoring, and have a hundred other abilities in order to survive. But since they didn’t punch a clock and pay taxes to Uncle Sam most of society would today consider them unemployed.

As an interesting twist to this situation, consider that these pioneers settled in Indian territory when they carved out a little chunk of land for themselves. When bands of roving Indians came around to share some food and supplies it would have been quite a sight from today’s viewpoint. Here you have some unemployed pioneers willing to share a few scraps of food with some unemployed Indians roaming their way from Montana to Mexico. What losers. Can’t either of these groups hold down a job?

While many of us today might consider both the pioneers and Indians unemployed the government would not. Having walked away from the work force and given up on looking for a job (and paying taxes) they are no longer considered part of the potential work force as per the government’s definition. In their wisdom they determined these people simply don’t get counted at all.

So it all depends upon your perspective. The pioneers would not have considered themselves unemployed. The Indians would not have considered themselves unemployed. Today’s society would consider them both unemployed, but the government simply refuses to consider them at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:15 am 
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Kolokol888 wrote:
I think the original premise is false. There was unemployment in hunter gatherer societies; the sick, the lame, the old, the young, the stupid etc.


There are two clear differences between these people and today's unemployed.

1) No one is stopping them from working - they are held back by their own limitations.

2) No one thinks it is morally right to "punish" these people for their lack of work by denying them life sustaining food and shelter. (And perversely, health care in today's society.)

As for famine, when this happened, the tribe bore it together, rather then having a designated suffering class while everyone else got to eat. And hunter gatherer societies did understand the dangers of over-harvesting and the need for population control.

===============================

The great attraction of the old west was it's freedom from the socio-economic control. This was perhaps the last place in history where one could escape the need to depend on society to be productive. The conservative ideal of "rugged individualism" was a realistic way to live back then - today it is just an excuse for callousness like this:

Quote:
There is nothing that prevents anyone from working. Can't find a job... open your own business or go door to door and ask people if they want their lawns cut.


Do you seriously think people in housing projects can get ahead by mowing each other's lawns? What percentage of businesses opening in depressed areas fail? You might as well say that nothing prevented anyone on the Titanic from getting to a life boat. Five people per job opening? Just try harder!


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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:26 am 
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But if you do all that thing you don't see unemployment here.A person can have some skill but we don't know whats are our skill.So when you know whats your skill you can get success.In china all person do what they want in life so there is stable economy there.Every person work for his own not for other so they get success.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:14 am 
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Algr wrote:
Humans have spent most of history in hunter gatherer societies. It seems to me that in such societies, there is no status that would be equivalent to "unemployment" as we know it today. If you want to hunt, you hunt. If you want to gather nuts and berries, you do so. If you want to sit down and do nothing, you can. The others in your tribe might stop sharing their food with you, but no one would ever STOP you from working if you wanted to work.

Somehow we have evolved into a state where society can place any burden it likes on to those who want to be allowed to provide to themselves. We create an environment where it is impossible for everyone who wants to work to do so; where being allowed a job is often only possible by denying a job to others. Then we shame those who are unable to fit themselves into a structure we designed to be unable to support everyone.

So Dan, how did this happen?


OK Algr, I'm going to take you to task on this. I'm kind of on a Adam Carolla style rant on this poverty/unemployment thing right now.

If you want to be a Hunter/Gatherer right now you can be. You can move to numerous places in the world right now and do it, hell you can stay right in the US and be hunter/gatherer. You can camp almost anywhere on USDA Forest Service land for 14 days at a time. Work your way around the country as a nomadic hunter/gatherer. You can hunt squirrels and rabbits all you want, gather nuts, berries and mushrooms all you want for personal use.

Algr wrote:
We create an environment where it is impossible for everyone who wants to work to do so; where being allowed a job is often only possible by denying a job to others.

I call bullshit. (no insult to you)
If you want a modern version of Hunter/Gatherer, you want a job? Move to North Dakota and work in the oil fields. About all you need to be able to do is be drug free and work hard and you'll likely get a job, that's the modern version of Hunter/Gatherer. The Hunter/Gatherers moved where they could provide for themselves and their family, same thing here in modern times.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Imagine me opening the door and walking into the room while you are all in the middle of a conversation.

And, I say "Who invented freedom"?

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Haven't seen this thread in awhile, but the idea that a person needs 6400 acres to survive.... Is utter bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Archon
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Families in the 19th century were able to sustain themselves on about ten to twenty acres, so I would start with that. The families mostly consisted of five or more kids too.

Most likely you can live on a few acres per person depending upon the land in question. If it can support corn and/or wheat, then you actually have a pretty high efficiency. Corn can grow in every state too.

This also doesn't account for economic activity. If you have specialty crops like apples, then you can easily purchase or barter for goods that you lack.

There exists more than enough land in the United States to support the current American population. The problem is that the land is accumulated when it needs to be more distributed. The problem with that comes down to education and the ability for the average American to figure out how to homestead in the first place. Much of the Dust Bowl was the result of the unsustainable farming practices of homesteaders.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:03 pm 
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So this discussion is back...

Quote:
If you want to be a Hunter/Gatherer right now you can be. You can move to numerous places in the world right now and do it, hell you can stay right in the US and be hunter/gatherer.

Tell that to the native americans.

The 6400 acres figure is for a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, not farming. If you are unemployed you can't just put some seeds in the ground and wait six months before you can eat. Farming needs investment, and the last person who might be able to get a loan is someone unemployed. So you are back to square one with society actively preventing you from being productive.


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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:07 pm 
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http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Homeless-and-hungry-man-prefers-a-jail-cell-4213734.php

If you ever get too hungry you can go this route.


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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Might be a good place for socialists to all move and create a kind of mirror image of New Hampshire.



Obviously never been to Eastern Washington.

The land you can get for that cheap? Better develop a healthy apatite for prairie dog and tumbleweed.

No. I imagine something better. Something...Impossible.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:25 am 
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Archon
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Did you just insult my home?

Such affronts shall not be tolerated.

Defend thy self!

Engarde!

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:17 am 
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Archon
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They say in eastern Washington, there is a young woman behind every tree.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 am 
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Hetairoi
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Algr wrote:
Humans have spent most of history in hunter gatherer societies. It seems to me that in such societies, there is no status that would be equivalent to "unemployment" as we know it today. If you want to hunt, you hunt. If you want to gather nuts and berries, you do so. If you want to sit down and do nothing, you can. The others in your tribe might stop sharing their food with you, but no one would ever STOP you from working if you wanted to work.


A liitle off topic......

Hunter-Gatherer societies only work on small scale. Today in the US we have an unemployment rate of 8% +/-, but we have a third, over 100 million people, without full time jobs. So, speaking for truth in numbers only the reality is that our unemployment rate is closer to 30% than 8%.

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 Post subject: Re: Who invented unemployment?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Hetairoi
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Carlus Magnus wrote:
Algr wrote:
Humans have spent most of history in hunter gatherer societies. It seems to me that in such societies, there is no status that would be equivalent to "unemployment" as we know it today. If you want to hunt, you hunt. If you want to gather nuts and berries, you do so. If you want to sit down and do nothing, you can. The others in your tribe might stop sharing their food with you, but no one would ever STOP you from working if you wanted to work.

Somehow we have evolved into a state where society can place any burden it likes on to those who want to be allowed to provide to themselves. We create an environment where it is impossible for everyone who wants to work to do so; where being allowed a job is often only possible by denying a job to others. Then we shame those who are unable to fit themselves into a structure we designed to be unable to support everyone.

So Dan, how did this happen?


OK Algr, I'm going to take you to task on this. I'm kind of on a Adam Carolla style rant on this poverty/unemployment thing right now.

If you want to be a Hunter/Gatherer right now you can be. You can move to numerous places in the world right now and do it, hell you can stay right in the US and be hunter/gatherer. You can camp almost anywhere on USDA Forest Service land for 14 days at a time. Work your way around the country as a nomadic hunter/gatherer. You can hunt squirrels and rabbits all you want, gather nuts, berries and mushrooms all you want for personal use.

Algr wrote:
We create an environment where it is impossible for everyone who wants to work to do so; where being allowed a job is often only possible by denying a job to others.

I call bullshit. (no insult to you)
If you want a modern version of Hunter/Gatherer, you want a job? Move to North Dakota and work in the oil fields. About all you need to be able to do is be drug free and work hard and you'll likely get a job, that's the modern version of Hunter/Gatherer. The Hunter/Gatherers moved where they could provide for themselves and their family, same thing here in modern times.



Not as easy as you make it sound, costs LOTS of money to move a family these days.

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