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 Post subject: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Dan, have you ever thought about challenging a politician/media figure/friend/Ben to a debate. While you do bring up and talk about a lot of counter points in your show, it would be interesting to see the back and fourth with someone. I don't know if you could keep it from turning into a regular TV debate with so many people screaming at one time, the viewer can't tell what anyone says (then they pretend to all be great friends as the show goes to a commercial).

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:34 am 
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True debates are no longer possible in this country.

For a productive debate to occur there must be a common ground from which to work. That common ground consists of widely accepted norms and a common usage of the English language, neither of which this country possesses anymore.

Turn on your TV, read a newspaper or scan a few posts on this website and that point will become painfully clear. Want to have a debate on crime in this country? Good luck debating a person who feels murder, rape, and abuse are acceptable simply because we all are really nothing but victims at the end of the day.

Pick any topic you wish, the economy, education, big government, privacy, freedom, tyranny, there is no longer any common ground from which to begin a debate. When there is no longer a common sense of right and wrong there is nothing left to do but prepare for the war that history proves will surely follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:36 am 
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Quote:
Good luck debating a person who feels murder, rape, and abuse are acceptable simply because we all are really nothing but victims at the end of the day.


Did somebody actually say this, or are you injecting it into someone else's words? I think you may be guilty of the very thing you accuse others of.

What I see is the amazing variable standard of evidence. People start by choosing their "team" and then believe anything that makes their opponents look bad, while assuming conspiracy for any amount of evidence for facts that they find inconvenient.

For example, the 'evidence' for Obama being a secret muslim is basically that he is not republican and his name sounds funny. The evidence for global warming comes from tend of thousands of different people around the world who have actually gone out and carefully measured and documented a wide variety of environmental aspects with their own eyes, and subjected their results to public scrutiny. And yet you will find plenty of people who support secret muslim and deny global warming.

Why? Because they have decided that their "team" IS the truth. That is what is making common sense debate so difficult today.


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Algr wrote:
Quote:
Good luck debating a person who feels murder, rape, and abuse are acceptable simply because we all are really nothing but victims at the end of the day.


Did somebody actually say this, or are you injecting it into someone else's words? I think you may be guilty of the very thing you accuse others of.

What I see is the amazing variable standard of evidence. People start by choosing their "team" and then believe anything that makes their opponents look bad, while assuming conspiracy for any amount of evidence for facts that they find inconvenient.

For example, the 'evidence' for Obama being a secret muslim is basically that he is not republican and his name sounds funny. The evidence for global warming comes from tend of thousands of different people around the world who have actually gone out and carefully measured and documented a wide variety of environmental aspects with their own eyes, and subjected their results to public scrutiny. And yet you will find plenty of people who support secret muslim and deny global warming.

Why? Because they have decided that their "team" IS the truth. That is what is making common sense debate so difficult today.


I agree this is a big part of the explanation but I think it would be very easy to solve if the media would just ditch the whole 'news as entertainment' thing. How do you get a common middleground and facts - include experts in the debates duh :doioi:

Imagine: When the debate on foreign policy arrives instead of having two candidats lobbing granades at eachother uncontested you also have a seasoned general, an NCO, a professor of war studies and a CIA operative on stage with them.

If Dan should do a debate this is what he should do - debate the facts and merrits with some experts rather than opinions and he said - she said, which always windsup as a test of debate skills rather than discussing reality

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:35 am 
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A discussion would be better than a debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:33 pm 
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I would like to see an official DCF Hondo vs. NickDupree debate, plenty of common ground from which to work, plenty of differences, plenty of cordiality.

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:32 am 
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I'll second that motion.

My experience is most of us have more common ground than the media would like you to think. Plus, people tend to react to the way they are being treated. Someone who is cordial and open minded is likey to be treated in the same manner by others.

Let's just take a hypothetical where you and I are tasked with sorting out some monster issue like Obamacare. We'd both go in with our preconcieved ideas about the issue along with plenty of facts and figures to backup those ideas. After making our individual cases we'd start to look for common ground in the spirit of compromise. Who knows, you might even convince me that my demand to have Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi tarred and feathered live on national TV was a bit much. We could compromise and have them tarred only.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:19 am 
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So, you two agree to a time and open the thread get someone else to "Moderate" 2 hours of typing and debate, with a secondary thread for commentary and declare a winner and close the thread afterwards. do it up and make it a forum event. I know I would "watch".

The down size being with some of our lovely forum personalities it would end up being a cage match instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:19 am 
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That does sound like fun. We just have to agree to shut up and let them square off or it will just be cluttered and meaningless. I think there are posters who would not be okay with that. :hiding: But who knows? We need a Jim Lehrer.


EDIT: Also, genuine debates/heated discussions in the media do exist. Mill Moyers, Jon Stewart. They exist. You just have to seek them out. Dont expect them on CNN.

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:50 am 
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The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
That does sound like fun. We just have to agree to shut up and let them square off or it will just be cluttered and meaningless.
The better way to do it would be for them to create the debate via PM, and then post it in full on the board. If they want to have a moderator, they could include that person on the CC for the private messages. If they want feedback from the rest of the board on how to conduct the debate, we can provide it here, and then the whole debate can be posted as a new thread. The responses to that thread would be in regard to the debate already conducted. Rather than asking them to dedicate two hours, I'd suggest a week to conduct the debate after which it would be posted.


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:27 am 
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Atanamis wrote:
The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
That does sound like fun. We just have to agree to shut up and let them square off or it will just be cluttered and meaningless.
The better way to do it would be for them to create the debate via PM, and then post it in full on the board. If they want to have a moderator, they could include that person on the CC for the private messages. If they want feedback from the rest of the board on how to conduct the debate, we can provide it here, and then the whole debate can be posted as a new thread. The responses to that thread would be in regard to the debate already conducted. Rather than asking them to dedicate two hours, I'd suggest a week to conduct the debate after which it would be posted.
I agree, one week, over PM, then given its own thread.

What topic? It shouldn't be ObamaCare, I've despised it from the beginning, i don't defend it.

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"Unhappy events abroad have retaught us two simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people. The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any other controlling private power." – President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Simple Truths message to Congress (April 29, 1938)


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:25 am 
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NickDupree wrote:
What topic? It shouldn't be ObamaCare, I've despised it from the beginning, i don't defend it.
I'd nominate the basic question of how care for high cost debilitating chronic conditions should be funded in general might be a good starting place. It is the area you have changed my thinking the most, and is a critical sticking point I have with minimalist government types. I'd now place care for those with such conditions right after "protect from barbarian invaders" in my listing of government responsibilities, even before police and fire fighting services. That isn't a popular stance among those who want tiny governments.


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:31 am 
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OHH! Seconded!

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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:56 am 
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I agree. Willing to begin on PM if hondo agrees.

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"Unhappy events abroad have retaught us two simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people. The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any other controlling private power." – President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Simple Truths message to Congress (April 29, 1938)


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 Post subject: Re: Common Sense Debate
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:09 pm 
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What are the parameters that would be considered "chronic debilitation conditions"?

Hypertension/Diabetes etc..

Spina bifida, cystic fibrosis

Cancer, leukemia

Permanent diasbility?

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